Where Do I Belong?
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,369
Originally Posted by nez 
The woman was speaking "her" truth. That doesn't make it "the" truth. "My" truth would be somewhat different from her truth. You appear to have found a home in AA. I say welcome home. I am glad you made it.
You belong in AA when you decide you belong. There are people who hold the truth that I am not an alcoholic because I drank beer. My truth is that I am an alcoholic. My truth is that I am also an addict. I was addicted mentally and physically to alcohol.
I decided I belonged in AA and wild horses couldn't drag me out. I let other people nit-pick words/defintions/semantics/etc.etc.etc. I don't have time for that. I wanted sobriety and ongoing recovery and AA is a valuable tool to me on my journey. I wanted help. I found help. For me it started In AA. I am responsible to repay what was freely given to me.
One last truth, a mind is like a parachute, it fulfills the reason it was designed when open; otherwise it is just excess baggage. :~)
You belong in AA when you decide you belong. There are people who hold the truth that I am not an alcoholic because I drank beer. My truth is that I am an alcoholic. My truth is that I am also an addict. I was addicted mentally and physically to alcohol.
I decided I belonged in AA and wild horses couldn't drag me out. I let other people nit-pick words/defintions/semantics/etc.etc.etc. I don't have time for that. I wanted sobriety and ongoing recovery and AA is a valuable tool to me on my journey. I wanted help. I found help. For me it started In AA. I am responsible to repay what was freely given to me.
One last truth, a mind is like a parachute, it fulfills the reason it was designed when open; otherwise it is just excess baggage. :~)
Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,909
Originally Posted by tornrealization
It was at NA meeting they specifically called out alcohol is still a drug and to feel welcome...I felt I meshed with them better.
That was just my screwed up way of thinking or disease or AV or etc, telling me that I was extra special don't you know. Luckily I was able to move past all that prejudicial value judgement b.s. to realize it is the message that is important. That was what was going to save my life. The vehicle I took to get there didn't matter one iota when It came down to the bottom line, what mattered was the actual message and the solution.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,909
Originally Posted by kes
You all know my bro' died from heroin. I take it personally that he wouldm't have been welcome at meetings despite his cry for help.
We have had group conscience votes that bear me out on that.
One last thought, if you leave AA, those who need enlightenment the most when it comes to the fact of addiction being addiction period, you will be lessening the chances that those people will get enlightenment. People learn from examples and actions, if you leave...so does your example and your actions. If you leave, that is one less voice for right.
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 16,013
AA is all inclusive.
There is an on-going argument/discussion about Tradition 5. Mostly since it has been proven that many alcoholics can not help addicts as they can't relate to some behavior(s). Other people can relate. This argument helps members distract themselves from personal recovery.....
There is an on-going argument/discussion about Tradition 5. Mostly since it has been proven that many alcoholics can not help addicts as they can't relate to some behavior(s). Other people can relate. This argument helps members distract themselves from personal recovery.....
Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5,555
My AA group was in a small town, and welcomed all addictions, because the druggies had nowhere else to go. We even had a compulsive gambler. The only requirement for membership,"a desire to stop drinking," was ignored without question. I don't recall an objection ever being raised.
Rules and pressures to conform to this or that part of the AA program vary from meeting to meeting and location to location. I would try to fit in, not necessarily to agree with the group, but I would think about whether I wanted to talk about your other addictions, depending on the tone of the whole group, not just one member.
I don't remember this particular issue coming up at one of my meetings, but every once in a while, someone would authoritatively pound the table with some personal issue or other. I recall wondering what the big deal was all about. Usually, they would just allow the person to finish, and then continue on with a kind of "objection noted" indifference.
Rules and pressures to conform to this or that part of the AA program vary from meeting to meeting and location to location. I would try to fit in, not necessarily to agree with the group, but I would think about whether I wanted to talk about your other addictions, depending on the tone of the whole group, not just one member.
I don't remember this particular issue coming up at one of my meetings, but every once in a while, someone would authoritatively pound the table with some personal issue or other. I recall wondering what the big deal was all about. Usually, they would just allow the person to finish, and then continue on with a kind of "objection noted" indifference.
Life Goes On
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
I'd say somewhere around 25-30% of the people I encounter in AA meetings identify as alcoholic addicts. Which is to say that they are what is crudely called a "garbage can" - back in their day, they would consume whatever was available to alter their state of mind. Makes sense as the cohort just before mine were children of the sixties. No one objects to that, or to people referring to "other stuff" or whatever generic name they choose to use for their other drug use.
But we are (they are) very old school around here. I was in a meeting once where two young guys were in attendance for the first time and they were very... apologetic(?) that their issue was a non-alcohol drug. I thought, "Well, that's a shame. And what if they don't come back? How tragic would that be." So I made a point to approach them after the meeting to say, "I'm sorry for the times you've gotten the message you are not welcome here. There's plenty of people in that room that have experienced addiction to all sorts of (any sort of) drug. Please come back."
The way I see it, this is praciticing these principles in all of my affairs. I'm not about to suggest that we change AA in this regard any more than I would suggest that we change all gender references to be neutral, to ease back on the breaks the book doles out for (male) philandering, or completely throw out/rework "To The Wives." That is something beyond my control, for sure. But I will continue to welcome anyone who comes to the rooms with appropriate respect for the sensitivies of others and a desire to stop drinking (drugging). You belong just as much and no less than I do.
That's the beauty of the thing. Because of the principle of anonymity, no one person can speak for the program. I can only give my experience and perspective - and it's valid because AA says I get to do that.
O
But we are (they are) very old school around here. I was in a meeting once where two young guys were in attendance for the first time and they were very... apologetic(?) that their issue was a non-alcohol drug. I thought, "Well, that's a shame. And what if they don't come back? How tragic would that be." So I made a point to approach them after the meeting to say, "I'm sorry for the times you've gotten the message you are not welcome here. There's plenty of people in that room that have experienced addiction to all sorts of (any sort of) drug. Please come back."
The way I see it, this is praciticing these principles in all of my affairs. I'm not about to suggest that we change AA in this regard any more than I would suggest that we change all gender references to be neutral, to ease back on the breaks the book doles out for (male) philandering, or completely throw out/rework "To The Wives." That is something beyond my control, for sure. But I will continue to welcome anyone who comes to the rooms with appropriate respect for the sensitivies of others and a desire to stop drinking (drugging). You belong just as much and no less than I do.
That's the beauty of the thing. Because of the principle of anonymity, no one person can speak for the program. I can only give my experience and perspective - and it's valid because AA says I get to do that.
O
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
kes, if you are going to meetings that are 100% vanilla and inclusive and no one ever says anything with which you disagree...just wait 
I think AA is like any church. People can and do misinterpret the literature, make up their own, "Rules," act on biases, try to control others and in general make mistakes. I agree with nez that the Principles are sound. It's *us* who are not sound. That's how I became an alcoholic in the first place - trying to control what happens around me 24/7 so I would never feel any discomfort or the disagreement of anyone. I was always Right, right?
AA isn't perfect - because it's made up of humans. We all fall short. There are also those who are 100% Big Book Thumpers (we call them Legalists in the church.) Problem with legalism is that every book or religion contradicts itself somewhere, and in AA the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions book was sort of an add-on to the original Program and has some contradictions to the original Big Book, which can be somewhat confusing. I've seen people get in arguments over the Big Book vs the 12 X 12; both of which are AA literature. It's a bit like arguing over the Old Testament vs the New Testament and starting a new religion to do so. (Just an analogy, please don't take offense at me comparing AA literature to the Bible.)
My first reaction to TC's post was to say, "Talk to her about it," or to bring it up at a subsequent meeting. That's how AA disagreements get sorted out. It should be a safe place to discuss anything addiction-related. People change their views all the time, and discussions usually smooth things over. Wherever there are people there are going to be disagreements in interpretations.
I think AA is like any church. People can and do misinterpret the literature, make up their own, "Rules," act on biases, try to control others and in general make mistakes. I agree with nez that the Principles are sound. It's *us* who are not sound. That's how I became an alcoholic in the first place - trying to control what happens around me 24/7 so I would never feel any discomfort or the disagreement of anyone. I was always Right, right?
AA isn't perfect - because it's made up of humans. We all fall short. There are also those who are 100% Big Book Thumpers (we call them Legalists in the church.) Problem with legalism is that every book or religion contradicts itself somewhere, and in AA the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions book was sort of an add-on to the original Program and has some contradictions to the original Big Book, which can be somewhat confusing. I've seen people get in arguments over the Big Book vs the 12 X 12; both of which are AA literature. It's a bit like arguing over the Old Testament vs the New Testament and starting a new religion to do so. (Just an analogy, please don't take offense at me comparing AA literature to the Bible.)
My first reaction to TC's post was to say, "Talk to her about it," or to bring it up at a subsequent meeting. That's how AA disagreements get sorted out. It should be a safe place to discuss anything addiction-related. People change their views all the time, and discussions usually smooth things over. Wherever there are people there are going to be disagreements in interpretations.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 274
Hi,
Pretty damn simple really, bin tradition 5 and roll with a changing world.
I'm not working 12 steps. Re: Step 5 "confession," That's gone in the bin. If I want to confess anything I'd do it my Creator, not to a fellow alcoholic/stranger.
Step 4 pretty close to be being binned, not made my mind up on that yet, probably will be with step 5 as they're very much connected. So guys I guess I'll be travelling 10 steps, less to travel and will be far more effective for me. Step 5 has a feel of the "moonies" about it.
Again, just my opinion.
Pretty damn simple really, bin tradition 5 and roll with a changing world.
I'm not working 12 steps. Re: Step 5 "confession," That's gone in the bin. If I want to confess anything I'd do it my Creator, not to a fellow alcoholic/stranger.
Step 4 pretty close to be being binned, not made my mind up on that yet, probably will be with step 5 as they're very much connected. So guys I guess I'll be travelling 10 steps, less to travel and will be far more effective for me. Step 5 has a feel of the "moonies" about it.
Again, just my opinion.
Life Goes On
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
The common implementation of steps 4 and 5 seems completely over the top and beside the point to me, kes. (Workbooks and pages of writing and whatnot.) I struggled with it as well, but ended up doing 4 straight out of the book, just like it was in the example. Reading and thinking further, I found that I was able to discern my themes; the root of all my evil, if you will. I did not 'confess' to my sponsor, but we did talk over what landed on my inventory at a level that was deep enough, but not to the bone. That's for my therapist and I to work out.
I'd encourage you to seek your own understanding of the steps, then to work all of them as sincerely as you are able. Heard in a meeting, "The program didn't need to work for me - I needed to find a way that I could work the program."
O
I'd encourage you to seek your own understanding of the steps, then to work all of them as sincerely as you are able. Heard in a meeting, "The program didn't need to work for me - I needed to find a way that I could work the program."
O
Yield beautiful changes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,800
I had the lovely opportunity to meet up with my friend Larry last night. He was the only person present at the first AA meeting I stumbled into (February 22, 2022). He’s a wonderful, kind, “pure” alcoholic who never once questioned my place in AA.
I talked to him about this “belonging” question, and he very succinctly stated that AA has to change with people, most of whom now come in with numerous chemical problems (if not full-on addictions). He said the vast majority of new alcoholics he meets also messed around with drugs. Some of them wound up at meetings because of arrests for drug use. Others just dabbled. None of that matters to him.
It just made me think about the desire to RUN. To FLEE from the person you are, the pain that you feel. That’s all the same - whatever substance you end up utilizing.
It’s interesting to me that my HP has lead me into this discussion, because it has really helped me refocus on my pain. My reason.
I am an addict whose primary problem is an addiction to CONTROL.
Growing up, I had a very specific idea of what my life would look like, and when my first husband began to drink (despite my persistent insistence that it was a bad idea), I lost my mind. I also lost my husband (because who wants to be with someone who thinks they are ridiculous?). I could not convince the man that I loved to stop killing himself. He ended up killing himself.
I had no control over the situation. I had no control over Peter’s addiction.
10 years later, remarried with more kids, I am beginning to understand my drive to escape. I used because I wasn’t enough before, and I was afraid that I would never be enough. I used prescription drugs to escape my fear. Alcohol would have let me keep my job, but my history with alcoholism meant I couldn’t drink the way I NEEDED.
Losing someone I loved to alcoholism ratcheted up my fear. I’m just realizing that losing Peter, in the way that I lost him, AFFECTED me. He is not responsible for my addiction (any more than his father was responsible for his), but he is a big part of my story. And, oddly, that feels healthy to recognize.
I wanted AA for Peter so much. It’s ironic and interesting that I now have AA for me. And I’m not giving it up!
Thanks for listening
-TC
I talked to him about this “belonging” question, and he very succinctly stated that AA has to change with people, most of whom now come in with numerous chemical problems (if not full-on addictions). He said the vast majority of new alcoholics he meets also messed around with drugs. Some of them wound up at meetings because of arrests for drug use. Others just dabbled. None of that matters to him.
It just made me think about the desire to RUN. To FLEE from the person you are, the pain that you feel. That’s all the same - whatever substance you end up utilizing.
It’s interesting to me that my HP has lead me into this discussion, because it has really helped me refocus on my pain. My reason.
I am an addict whose primary problem is an addiction to CONTROL.
Growing up, I had a very specific idea of what my life would look like, and when my first husband began to drink (despite my persistent insistence that it was a bad idea), I lost my mind. I also lost my husband (because who wants to be with someone who thinks they are ridiculous?). I could not convince the man that I loved to stop killing himself. He ended up killing himself.
I had no control over the situation. I had no control over Peter’s addiction.
10 years later, remarried with more kids, I am beginning to understand my drive to escape. I used because I wasn’t enough before, and I was afraid that I would never be enough. I used prescription drugs to escape my fear. Alcohol would have let me keep my job, but my history with alcoholism meant I couldn’t drink the way I NEEDED.
Losing someone I loved to alcoholism ratcheted up my fear. I’m just realizing that losing Peter, in the way that I lost him, AFFECTED me. He is not responsible for my addiction (any more than his father was responsible for his), but he is a big part of my story. And, oddly, that feels healthy to recognize.
I wanted AA for Peter so much. It’s ironic and interesting that I now have AA for me. And I’m not giving it up!
Thanks for listening
-TC
Member
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 274
Hi TC,
Well said - makes total sense to me. Use AA for you, milk all the goodness you can from it and one day you can pass all that goodness on to the next addict regardless of their substance. It's what the HP would expect. from a good person like you.Those who don't think you should be there are lost souls. they will have to explain their attitude to the HP one day.
I'm not going tonight, not because I've quit AA but I'm not in the right mood after some of the posts. When I'm in a bad moodanything could happen should somebody say the wrong thing when i'm thinking of my bro not being accepted by some members in some meetings.
I'm so, so pleased your continuing going, should anyone say anything about you being there, tell them you're there to help anyone that needs help unlike them.
I'm so happy you're happier.
God bless
Kes
Well said - makes total sense to me. Use AA for you, milk all the goodness you can from it and one day you can pass all that goodness on to the next addict regardless of their substance. It's what the HP would expect. from a good person like you.Those who don't think you should be there are lost souls. they will have to explain their attitude to the HP one day.
I'm not going tonight, not because I've quit AA but I'm not in the right mood after some of the posts. When I'm in a bad moodanything could happen should somebody say the wrong thing when i'm thinking of my bro not being accepted by some members in some meetings.
I'm so, so pleased your continuing going, should anyone say anything about you being there, tell them you're there to help anyone that needs help unlike them.
I'm so happy you're happier.
God bless
Kes
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 1,103
Perhaps I missed it as I did not read all of the posts carefully but when this matter came up at our men's meeting a while back one of the most hard core AAers I ever met pointed us to a passage in Tradition 3 that started with "On the AA calendar it was year two."
Yield beautiful changes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,800
The 12-Steps and 12 traditions-1 (portlandeyeopener.com)
Go to page 142
Wowsers. Of course, AA has the answer. I shouldn't be surprised by now!
I belong. And that belonging charges me with a responsibility to other suffering addicts. Whatever their addiction!
Thank you, AAPJ!
Go to page 142
Wowsers. Of course, AA has the answer. I shouldn't be surprised by now!
I belong. And that belonging charges me with a responsibility to other suffering addicts. Whatever their addiction!
Thank you, AAPJ!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 1,103
TC - I will thank my friend Steve on your behalf who showed me this passage. Something else Steve told me which also applies to this situation. You started this thread because of some else ranting at an AA meeting about addicts. Well early in my sobriety Steve told me that if you have not met someone you don't like in AA you have not been to enough AA meetings. :-)
Member
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 274
Originally Posted by nez
Sorry for loss and pain. It really hits home for me. I can't answer for anyone else, but I would have stood beside and fought for your brother at meetings. The meetings I go to, yeah there would probably be some resistance and reluctance from a scant few members, but they are the exception...not the rule. Most members I know, want to end suffering from addiction for any and everyone.
We have had group conscience votes that bear me out on that.
One last thought, if you leave AA, those who need enlightenment the most when it comes to the fact of addiction being addiction period, you will be lessening the chances that those people will get enlightenment. People learn from examples and actions, if you leave...so does your example and your actions. If you leave, that is one less voice for right.
We have had group conscience votes that bear me out on that.
One last thought, if you leave AA, those who need enlightenment the most when it comes to the fact of addiction being addiction period, you will be lessening the chances that those people will get enlightenment. People learn from examples and actions, if you leave...so does your example and your actions. If you leave, that is one less voice for right.
God bless
Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,909
Very kind words with a very kind message
Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,909
a real life experience
https://portlandeyeopener.com/AA-12-...Traditions.pdf
(pages 141-142)
https://portlandeyeopener.com/AA-12-...Traditions.pdf
(pages 141-142)
A newcomer appeared at one of these groups, knocked on the door and asked to be let in. He talked frankly with that group's oldest member. He soon proved that his was a desperate case, and that above all he wanted to get well. “But,” he asked, “will you let me join your group? Since I am the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism, you may not want me among you. Or will you?”
There was the dilemma. What should the group do? The oldest member summoned two others, and in confidence laid the explosive facts in their laps. Said he, “Well, what about it? If we turn this man away, he'll soon die. If we allow him in, only God knows what trouble he'll brew. What shall the answer be—yes or no?”
At first the elders could look only at the objections. “We deal,” they said, “with alcoholics only. Shouldn't we sacrifice this one for the sake of the many?” So went the discussion while the newcomer's fate hung in the balance. Then one of the three spoke in a very different voice. “What we are really afraid of,” he said, “is our reputation. We are much more afraid of what people might say than the trouble this strange alcoholic might bring. As we've been talking, five short words have been running through my mind. Something keeps repeating to me, 'What would the Master do?'” Not another word was said. What more indeed could be said?
Overjoyed, the newcomer plunged into Twelfth Step work. Tirelessly he laid A.A.'s message before scores of people. Since this was a very early group, those scores have since multiplied themselves into thousands. Never did he trouble anyone with his other difficulty. A.A. had taken its first step in the formation of Tradition Three
There was the dilemma. What should the group do? The oldest member summoned two others, and in confidence laid the explosive facts in their laps. Said he, “Well, what about it? If we turn this man away, he'll soon die. If we allow him in, only God knows what trouble he'll brew. What shall the answer be—yes or no?”
At first the elders could look only at the objections. “We deal,” they said, “with alcoholics only. Shouldn't we sacrifice this one for the sake of the many?” So went the discussion while the newcomer's fate hung in the balance. Then one of the three spoke in a very different voice. “What we are really afraid of,” he said, “is our reputation. We are much more afraid of what people might say than the trouble this strange alcoholic might bring. As we've been talking, five short words have been running through my mind. Something keeps repeating to me, 'What would the Master do?'” Not another word was said. What more indeed could be said?
Overjoyed, the newcomer plunged into Twelfth Step work. Tirelessly he laid A.A.'s message before scores of people. Since this was a very early group, those scores have since multiplied themselves into thousands. Never did he trouble anyone with his other difficulty. A.A. had taken its first step in the formation of Tradition Three
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